Apologies for the delay in responding to your question, KD7IVS.
We see these names, Urim & Thummim mentioned in various passages (e.g. Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21). Not much is known about them (there is even ignorance & debate amongst the Jews about this), except that they were likely stones (maybe precious stones) that were placed in the Jewish high priest's "breastplate of judgement"; sometimes referred to as the "breastplate of decision". Within that breastplate were also the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, so it appears that there might be a connection there, where the high priest used these stones to determine God's Will in certain situations concerning Israel.
How God chose to guide the priest to a correct judgement/decision is not told us: whether by the appearance of Light (Urim) or Perfections or declaration of Truth (Thummim). In 1 Samuel 28:6 which you referred to, we read of King Saul making enquiry of the LORD, but the LORD did not speak to him, whether by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by the prophets. This then seems to be some of the ways that God revealed His Word to His people, and these stones, Urim & Thummin, were used by the High Priest to learn the answer from God for the people.
Are you referring to verse 7? I see it spelled (Endor) in the KJV
I then see it spelled En Dor in Bible Hub interlinear study
However you spell it she's a Medium .
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after those having occult knowledge, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Familiar spiritS - These are evil spirits personating dead human beings, and attaching themselves only to "mediums" and those who give up their will to them.
1Samuel 28:11-12,14, 1Samuel 28:15, says & "Samuel said" it has been noted in the Bible even in this very chapter that it's wicked & under GOD's laws penalty of death. Exodus 22:18, 1Samuel 28:3
GOD had left Saul, 1Samuel 28:6 because Saul 1st left GOD in all his doings, 1Samuel 13, 1Samuel 14, & 15, including killing GOD's priests 1Samuel 22:11-19, & pursued trying to kill David his faithful servant, son-in-law & person GOD used to save Israel & Saul's throne. 1Samuel 16:21, 1Samuel 17,
it lead to an evil spirit harrassing him. Even before he killed GOD's Priests. 1Samuel 16:23, 1Samuel 18:10-12,
1Samuel 15:23,
Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:10,
In Egypt & Babylon people practiced evil that had effects yet GOD always proves to be GOD ALMIGHTY. Exodus 1, begins the events
Daniel 1, starts Daniel's account in Babylon..
Even in the last days there will be false signs & wonders. Revelation 13,
It's important to know the power of GOD & stay far from evil .
The power of GOD= heals, sets free, saves, brings justice, redeems, supernaturally protects, HIS HOLY Spirit brings peace, wisdom, understanding, hope & joy beyond understanding.
Agreed. Believers have no business delving into these practices as they open doors to wicked influences. But I do think believers need to be aware of the subtle "doors" to occult practices. Yoga and mindfulness are a couple even if it is packaged as Christian yoga or mindfulness. Also, seeking supernatural experiences concerning the "presence" of the Holy Spirit, such as "holy laughter" "being drunk in the spirit" "feeling electricity going through one's body". Seeking the experience and not truth is dangerous in some ways. I am not saying that someone cannot be moved by the Spirit or feel the Spirit pressing on one to pray or do or say a specific thing. I have had such experiences, but I did not go seeking to be "receive an anointing or blessing" for these things to happen to me. Those who are experience seekers or wishing for a hyper emotional encounter with the Holy Spirit are often introduced to occult influences under the guise of a "blessing" or "anointing" or "encounter" or with the Holy Spirit. Scripture calls us to be sober minded and reverent in our approach to God. Since He is in charge and decides when and how He will impact us, there isn't a need to seek or press for such an experience. The Lord will bring it to us at the right time and in the right situation.
In today's church environment, there is a lot of new age or occultic practices being introduced repeatedly over the past decades. We all should be wary of anything that is the "new" thing in church circles. We need to keep our guard up, especially if we participate in a charismatic or pentecostal type of fellowship. I am not bashing these types of churches, but, just like the Catholic churches, "new" ways of accessing the Holy Spirit have cropped up over the last years that lead into occult influences. This is called syncretism, which is blending occult or pagan practices with Christian practices, often with seemingly "spiritual" Christian sounding names and descriptions. Let's be wise.
Loved this! Thank you. And this tells us we had better fear going to witches, psychics, palm readers, tarot, astrologists, horoscopes, angel card readers, crystal ball readers, black magic, white magic, ouija boards, satanism, Wicca, yoga, etc. and so on and so forth. These things are a giant no no!But the Bible also says that REBELLION is as the sin of witchcraft. I fear THE LORD of hosts! Saul was desperate when he consulted with the witch of Endor. Even she was terrified. She thought she would be killed. If I remember correctly. I always warn people about going anywhere but to the Lord. And to stay far away from any occult or new age practices.
I was just reading up on Saul in 1 Samuel 10 and 13. I think the kingship was taken from Saul because: first He offered a sacrifice to YHWH without Samuel, violating the commandment that the priests are to offer the sacrifice; and second, When Saul and his army went out to defeat the Amalekites, Saul took Agag the Amalekite king as a captive, destroyed all of the other Amalekites, took the best cattle and booty from the plunder. God had instructed Saul to completely wipe out the Amalekites, leaving NO survivors and destroy ALL of the Amalekites' possessions and their habitations, EVERTHING belonging to the Amalekites. Thirdly, Saul set up a monument to Himself in Carmel instead of a memorial to YHWH.
On his way back from Carmel to Samuel, Saul stated "I have kept the commandments of the LORD."
God had already told Samuel that the kingship and anointing of the Holy Spirit will be removed from Saul because of these sins (which included pride, independence from God, self-righteousness, etc.)
After the Holy Spirit left him, Saul was given an evil spirit within himself that distressed him, depressed him, and caused his mind to play "mind-games" within himself. After this time, Saul went to the witch of Endor to have her conure up the spirit of Samuel (who had died and also, had never spoke to Saul again after the encounter with Saul returning from Carmel and Saul's lack of remorse and repentance.) Saul wanted Samuel to give him the inside scoop for the upcoming battle with the Philistines (since the LORD no longer spoke to Saul to guide him in war).
This is where David come into the picture. Saul wanted a musician to play for him in hopes to soothe his vexed soul. David was recommended and chosen by Saul. David's music helped Saul' mood and lifted the oppression of the evil spirit for a time until David needed to be called again and again to play for Saul. Thus began the relationship of Saul/David/Jonathan. It was good at first. then went bad in time.
1 Samuel 28:19. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
In this sad account, we see that the prophet Samuel was already dead with his body in the grave at Ramah (v3) & King Saul was asking the Lord concerning the battle before him, since he was completely outnumbered by the enemy (the Philistines). King Saul had earlier decreed that the practice of wizardry, necromancy, etc. was forbidden, however, since God had chosen not to answer Saul's prayers about this battle, Saul, in subterfuge, turned to a woman who still quietly dabbled in witchcraft.
The woman was hesitant to do this because of the King's edict, but Saul, who was disguised, assured her that nothing would happen to her. This woman, as others who practised these 'arts', usually operated by using deceit, voice impersonations & other means to satisfy their enquirers. Sometimes of course, impersonating evil spirits would be roused up & make their presence known. But here in this account, the spirit & vision of dead Samuel had appeared to the woman, to which she took great fright because her 'art' was actually producing an actual real event, which was very unusual for her. I would understand that this was an exception to the rule: that God had allowed this to take place for Saul's sake. God had refused to speak to Saul earlier because of his sins, disobedience & hatred of David, but now chose to allow this 'word from Samuel' to cause him great despair.
This account reminds us of Jesus' story about the rich man & Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), where both the rich man & Lazarus were in hell (though Lazarus was in comfort & the other in torment). The rich man pleaded that Lazarus be sent back to Earth to warn his five brothers about the condition of their lives & not end up where he was, but Jesus said that his brothers had the Scriptures from God to warn them. So it implies that the spirit of Lazarus could have been sent to Earth to warn, but God chose not to. But in Saul's case, God had allowed this to happen & used it to foretell of Israel's defeat & Saul's death.
I believe your right...This message came from God, not from a spirit conjured up by a witch.... God knew that Saul was going to see this witch, and God made sure Saul learned a lesson....
I have studied this story many times because I believe it is a warning to those who would become involved in witchcraft to see what happened to King Saul because he believed a witch had power. She screamed when she saw Samuel, so she didn't bring him up from the dead. Only God has power over life and death. On TV and movies actors try to convince people they are powerful.
The witch cried out and was surprised to see the real Samuel. God did allow Samuel to come and speak to Saul to repeat his message to the disobedient servant. He was able to get the message from the person he sought instead of God. God can make a donkey talk if he wants. This was a rare case but did happen.
Saul had strayed so far from God that he turned to divination. We must make sure that we trust in God or we may be tempted to turn to uncanny means to find out about a matter.
Saul made a BIG BIG mistake, he didn't kill the Amorities, now he's turning to sorcery :-0, Big,Big, No,No!,he was already going to be dealt his consequences, for the Amorities, now Sorcery,in my opinion, NOT very smart, one thing on top of another,I will Admitt here,I at a . fell into thinking if I could do "good" things with Wicca,it'd b ok,I burned all my books and REPENTED,how BLIND I was:(.
No, you are being judgmental. It does NOT become 'my' opinion if I don't give scripture - if one takes the time to reference a word or more to find the scriptures. Here are your scriptures: Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4: 8-9. I post to people on here who are concerned with the word of God; not with 'debaters'.
Irene, you said on this discussion page that Satan held the souls from entering heaven that were born before Christ's ascension. I asked for verse to prove it. Is this what you were searching for when you mentioned in on Psalms 19 page?
The Lord Jesus told a story; (that He had evidently witnessed); about a poor beggar named Lazarus; who was eventually freed from his most miserable life, and granted life eternal; because "In his life he had evil things, and now he is comforted." Not a word about a religious rite having to be done, or even mention of a prayer! Yet God loved him, and did not forget ANYTHING of all that he suffered!
Irene 123 What scripture says Christ freed the captive dead saints from the clutches of Satan after his ascension. And where did he hold them captive? If you do not substantiate what you say with scripture, it becomes your opinion. Opinions won't save, correct, or edify anyone. You say"it's God's word";what book and verse? From the KJV, reference from one the 66 books,please.
Bruce - Read v. 22 again. It says, if any says to his BROTHER (or sister) IN THE LORD. I referred to sinners who dabble, or are serious, in the black arts. C'mon guys; read your Bible.
LU2677 - No, they WERE saved. At that time (different dispensation) satan held all souls from entering Heaven - as the time of the age of grace was not yet in effect. God still controlled satan; he could not hurt those saints, at all. After His ascension Jesus freed them. They were fine. Look, this is God's word, not mine. If I can understand it so can anyone - IF they want to.
"Satan held captive every soul that died" Are you saying that David,Moses,Abraham,Isaac,Jacob,Daniel,Joshua,and all the other godly men that died before His crucifiction,etc,etc were not godly men? Did they worship satan? I hope for your soul's sake you are not saying this! Irene.
We see these names, Urim & Thummim mentioned in various passages (e.g. Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21). Not much is known about them (there is even ignorance & debate amongst the Jews about this), except that they were likely stones (maybe precious stones) that were placed in the Jewish high priest's "breastplate of judgement"; sometimes referred to as the "breastplate of decision". Within that breastplate were also the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, so it appears that there might be a connection there, where the high priest used these stones to determine God's Will in certain situations concerning Israel.
How God chose to guide the priest to a correct judgement/decision is not told us: whether by the appearance of Light (Urim) or Perfections or declaration of Truth (Thummim). In 1 Samuel 28:6 which you referred to, we read of King Saul making enquiry of the LORD, but the LORD did not speak to him, whether by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by the prophets. This then seems to be some of the ways that God revealed His Word to His people, and these stones, Urim & Thummin, were used by the High Priest to learn the answer from God for the people.
I then see it spelled En Dor in Bible Hub interlinear study
However you spell it she's a Medium .
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after those having occult knowledge, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Familiar spiritS - These are evil spirits personating dead human beings, and attaching themselves only to "mediums" and those who give up their will to them.
It seems that the English translation of "Endor" should be "Ein Dor".
GOD had left Saul, 1Samuel 28:6 because Saul 1st left GOD in all his doings, 1Samuel 13, 1Samuel 14, & 15, including killing GOD's priests 1Samuel 22:11-19, & pursued trying to kill David his faithful servant, son-in-law & person GOD used to save Israel & Saul's throne. 1Samuel 16:21, 1Samuel 17,
it lead to an evil spirit harrassing him. Even before he killed GOD's Priests. 1Samuel 16:23, 1Samuel 18:10-12,
1Samuel 15:23,
Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:10,
In Egypt & Babylon people practiced evil that had effects yet GOD always proves to be GOD ALMIGHTY. Exodus 1, begins the events
Daniel 1, starts Daniel's account in Babylon..
Even in the last days there will be false signs & wonders. Revelation 13,
It's important to know the power of GOD & stay far from evil .
The power of GOD= heals, sets free, saves, brings justice, redeems, supernaturally protects, HIS HOLY Spirit brings peace, wisdom, understanding, hope & joy beyond understanding.
Agreed. Believers have no business delving into these practices as they open doors to wicked influences. But I do think believers need to be aware of the subtle "doors" to occult practices. Yoga and mindfulness are a couple even if it is packaged as Christian yoga or mindfulness. Also, seeking supernatural experiences concerning the "presence" of the Holy Spirit, such as "holy laughter" "being drunk in the spirit" "feeling electricity going through one's body". Seeking the experience and not truth is dangerous in some ways. I am not saying that someone cannot be moved by the Spirit or feel the Spirit pressing on one to pray or do or say a specific thing. I have had such experiences, but I did not go seeking to be "receive an anointing or blessing" for these things to happen to me. Those who are experience seekers or wishing for a hyper emotional encounter with the Holy Spirit are often introduced to occult influences under the guise of a "blessing" or "anointing" or "encounter" or with the Holy Spirit. Scripture calls us to be sober minded and reverent in our approach to God. Since He is in charge and decides when and how He will impact us, there isn't a need to seek or press for such an experience. The Lord will bring it to us at the right time and in the right situation.
In today's church environment, there is a lot of new age or occultic practices being introduced repeatedly over the past decades. We all should be wary of anything that is the "new" thing in church circles. We need to keep our guard up, especially if we participate in a charismatic or pentecostal type of fellowship. I am not bashing these types of churches, but, just like the Catholic churches, "new" ways of accessing the Holy Spirit have cropped up over the last years that lead into occult influences. This is called syncretism, which is blending occult or pagan practices with Christian practices, often with seemingly "spiritual" Christian sounding names and descriptions. Let's be wise.
I was just reading up on Saul in 1 Samuel 10 and 13. I think the kingship was taken from Saul because: first He offered a sacrifice to YHWH without Samuel, violating the commandment that the priests are to offer the sacrifice; and second, When Saul and his army went out to defeat the Amalekites, Saul took Agag the Amalekite king as a captive, destroyed all of the other Amalekites, took the best cattle and booty from the plunder. God had instructed Saul to completely wipe out the Amalekites, leaving NO survivors and destroy ALL of the Amalekites' possessions and their habitations, EVERTHING belonging to the Amalekites. Thirdly, Saul set up a monument to Himself in Carmel instead of a memorial to YHWH.
On his way back from Carmel to Samuel, Saul stated "I have kept the commandments of the LORD."
God had already told Samuel that the kingship and anointing of the Holy Spirit will be removed from Saul because of these sins (which included pride, independence from God, self-righteousness, etc.)
After the Holy Spirit left him, Saul was given an evil spirit within himself that distressed him, depressed him, and caused his mind to play "mind-games" within himself. After this time, Saul went to the witch of Endor to have her conure up the spirit of Samuel (who had died and also, had never spoke to Saul again after the encounter with Saul returning from Carmel and Saul's lack of remorse and repentance.) Saul wanted Samuel to give him the inside scoop for the upcoming battle with the Philistines (since the LORD no longer spoke to Saul to guide him in war).
This is where David come into the picture. Saul wanted a musician to play for him in hopes to soothe his vexed soul. David was recommended and chosen by Saul. David's music helped Saul' mood and lifted the oppression of the evil spirit for a time until David needed to be called again and again to play for Saul. Thus began the relationship of Saul/David/Jonathan. It was good at first. then went bad in time.
Saul was consulting with witches and spirits of the dead. This is why Gods anointing left him.
I believe this is what you are looking for.
1 Samuel 28:19. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
The woman was hesitant to do this because of the King's edict, but Saul, who was disguised, assured her that nothing would happen to her. This woman, as others who practised these 'arts', usually operated by using deceit, voice impersonations & other means to satisfy their enquirers. Sometimes of course, impersonating evil spirits would be roused up & make their presence known. But here in this account, the spirit & vision of dead Samuel had appeared to the woman, to which she took great fright because her 'art' was actually producing an actual real event, which was very unusual for her. I would understand that this was an exception to the rule: that God had allowed this to take place for Saul's sake. God had refused to speak to Saul earlier because of his sins, disobedience & hatred of David, but now chose to allow this 'word from Samuel' to cause him great despair.
This account reminds us of Jesus' story about the rich man & Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), where both the rich man & Lazarus were in hell (though Lazarus was in comfort & the other in torment). The rich man pleaded that Lazarus be sent back to Earth to warn his five brothers about the condition of their lives & not end up where he was, but Jesus said that his brothers had the Scriptures from God to warn them. So it implies that the spirit of Lazarus could have been sent to Earth to warn, but God chose not to. But in Saul's case, God had allowed this to happen & used it to foretell of Israel's defeat & Saul's death.